Request; Remove Alignment from Dark Knight

[SacredCeadus]

While this is something that can easily be remedied with a house rule, something in me compels me to point out that Dark Knights in Final Fantasy have never been exclusively evil. In fact, it would seem that many prominent Dark Knights are, in fact, of good alignment.

Cecil Harvey from Final Fantasy 4 is an example of that. He was raised and trained with the "dark sword" but he isn't a bad person. Matter of fact, he essentially wears his heart on his sleeve and genuinely cares for his companions and fights against evil. Dark Knight is a common job in Final Fantasy titles that the hero(es) can take up to use on their own.

While there are a few enemies that are fought which are also Dark Knights, the majority of the appearances of the job aren't evil aligned. Hell, in Final Fantasy 2, you have a Dark Knight as an enemy until a certain point, at which he JOINS your party. In Final Fantasy 11, there is no real evil there. It is simply implied to be a very bloody (you have to slay 100 monsters with a specific sword for the job unlock quest) and somewhat dark (Dark Knights specialize in Dark type magics, and even have spells given specifically to them within that school) job.

The concept of a Dark Knight may originate from black knights in history, but I don't feel that it should define what Dark Knights are, nor should the name. Break it down, and Dark Knights are simply glass cannon Warriors who sacrifice HP in exchange for big damage and also use Dark magic.

Again, this can be fixed with a simple house rule, but looking at the class on here and seeing them labeled as "evil" seems rather wrong when you consider the class' history in Final Fantasy as a whole.

[Viladin]

While this is something that can easily be remedied with a house rule, something in me compels me to point out that Dark Knights in Final Fantasy have never been exclusively evil. In fact, it would seem that many prominent Dark Knights are, in fact, of good alignment.

Cecil Harvey from Final Fantasy 4 is an example of that. He was raised and trained with the "dark sword" but he isn't a bad person. Matter of fact, he essentially wears his heart on his sleeve and genuinely cares for his companions and fights against evil. Dark Knight is a common job in Final Fantasy titles that the hero(es) can take up to use on their own.

While there are a few enemies that are fought which are also Dark Knights, the majority of the appearances of the job aren't evil aligned. Hell, in Final Fantasy 2, you have a Dark Knight as an enemy until a certain point, at which he JOINS your party. In Final Fantasy 11, there is no real evil there. It is simply implied to be a very bloody (you have to slay 100 monsters with a specific sword for the job unlock quest) and somewhat dark (Dark Knights specialize in Dark type magics, and even have spells given specifically to them within that school) job.

The concept of a Dark Knight may originate from black knights in history, but I don't feel that it should define what Dark Knights are, nor should the name. Break it down, and Dark Knights are simply glass cannon Warriors who sacrifice HP in exchange for big damage and also use Dark magic.

Again, this can be fixed with a simple house rule, but looking at the class on here and seeing them labeled as "evil" seems rather wrong when you consider the class' history in Final Fantasy as a whole.

I hate to keep saying this, but Cecil WAS evil. Dark Knights ARE evil. Cecil switched to a Paladin. It would be the same thing for a ex-paladin to become a paladin once again in normal D&D rules.

Cecil had a change of heart. But he did as he was told and killed people. That is an evil act. Just because he didn't want to, but he did it anyways doesn't make it less evil.

"I've worn this darkened armor for so long now, there's no mote of light left in me. Not even... in my heart."
—Cecil to Rosa

[SacredCeadus]

He was deceived into doing it, being told that retrieving the crystals was "for the good of Baron." He may have accepted the order and executed it, but the reality of the situation hits him almost instantly after that. Not only him, but his crew as well. When he questions the order, he's not only demoted but ordered/forced into another errand which takes him (and Kain) to Mist. Again, he is deceived into what he does. This also forces his own hand and makes him act upon his anger at being misled.

True, his good nature should have stopped him from committing the first action, but how could he and to what end? To defy the orders, be labeled a traitor, and risk being executed himself along with the crew under his command (the latter being an extreme)? And while being lied to doesn't make the act any better, I believe he is also led to believe that Mysidia is using the crystal to their own benefit (please correct me on this last part if I'm wrong). The second one, Cecil was essentially lied to to his face. How would he know what he was delivering when he was shoved out of the throne room? He was lied to (again) and used for Mist's destruction. For all he and Kain knew, he could have been delivering a really ugly ring to someone.

Also, when you unlock Dark Knight in Final Fantasy Tactics, do you run around killing innocents? How about in Final Fantasy 3? No. Final Fantasy X-2? Another no. Maybe Final Fantasy 11? Nope, still fighting beastmen, monsters, and creatures of less than good origins.

The class is not evil in itself, it's simply how people use it.

I don't mean to sound argumentative here and I'm not seeking confrontation.

Also, let me clarify that by no means do I agree with taking another life. Don't misunderstand me.

... I also seem to have repeated myself in my first two paragraphs, apologies!

[Viladin]

None of these games has a moral compass to guide. Its a video game. Of course they're not going to show the evil element of a class.

But I'll put it to words differently, the class abilities of the Dark Knight, as it stands, are inherently evil. (which are mostly based from the Anti-paladin Pathfinder class, which is also evil).

It wouldn't make sense, as it stands right now, to allow non-evil alignment.

[Landrick]

I know I'm new and all. But is it possible SacredCeadus that your mistaking the good part of Cecil being a Dark Knight. With the fact he is most likely Lawful Evil at the start of the game. Since he has a code of ethic's and morals. And also to help point Viladin who I think did a great job creating this system. I don't think he's saying Cecil was Chaotic Evil, which is a form of Evil that is usually to far gone to be redeemed. Or Even that he's Neutral Evil which is sometimes at least where I'm from is called True Evil. The fact the is probably Lawful Evil at the beginning is what helped him turn good. Since as the game progressed and even at the beginning his actions seemed to be more focused on Law then Evil. And Lawful Evil can still do things that can appear good, since they have a code of honor. And rules and tradition's that they believe should be followed. Of course this is just my own opinion. But I hope it help explains why Cecil was Evil at the beginning. Thanks for your guys time.

[SacredCeadus]

None of these games has a moral compass to guide. Its a video game. Of course they're not going to show the evil element of a class.

But I'll put it to words differently, the class abilities of the Dark Knight, as it stands, are inherently evil. (which are mostly based from the Anti-paladin Pathfinder class, which is also evil).

It wouldn't make sense, as it stands right now, to allow non-evil alignment.

Hmm, I can respect that you're working with what you have, and I am sorry if I've bothered you with this. I will ask this though: What do you do when you have that guy who wants to roll a Dark Knight when the players are almost always playing an adventuring party that is of Good alignment?

[ZeronosVega]

Since as the game progressed and even at the beginning his actions seemed to be more focused on Law then Evil.

To add to your point, it was the Lawful side of Cecil which made him follow the orders of his king. Cecil, himself, wasn't entirely evil but his actions reflected evil deeds that he began to deplore.

[Viladin]

None of these games has a moral compass to guide. Its a video game. Of course they're not going to show the evil element of a class.

But I'll put it to words differently, the class abilities of the Dark Knight, as it stands, are inherently evil. (which are mostly based from the Anti-paladin Pathfinder class, which is also evil).

It wouldn't make sense, as it stands right now, to allow non-evil alignment.

Hmm, I can respect that you're working with what you have, and I am sorry if I've bothered you with this. I will ask this though: What do you do when you have that guy who wants to roll a Dark Knight when the players are almost always playing an adventuring party that is of Good alignment?

It depends on the player. I can see a Dark Knight working with a party of good adventurers. But he would, usually, need to be Lawful Evil.

You're not bothering me.

[Viladin]

Since as the game progressed and even at the beginning his actions seemed to be more focused on Law then Evil.

To add to your point on, it was the Lawful side of Cecil which made him follow the orders of his king. Cecil, himself, wasn't entirely evil but his actions reflected evil deeds that he began to deplore.

Seems like Lawful Evil to me

[ZeronosVega]

Since as the game progressed and even at the beginning his actions seemed to be more focused on Law then Evil.

To add to your point on, it was the Lawful side of Cecil which made him follow the orders of his king. Cecil, himself, wasn't entirely evil but his actions reflected evil deeds that he began to deplore.

Seems like Lawful Evil to me

That's the point.

As for playing a Dark Knight in a band of non-evil, there are a few ways you can do this. First off, Lawful Evil means you abide by a certain code. It could be to obey your leader/ruler/master, to respect certain codes of honor or to follow through with a particular promise. Either way, you aren't out slaughtering villages because you felt like it.

Something else I've done is downplay the evil aspect and roll with a pseudo-Knight, as the character didn't wish to reveal his abilities to the party because the character felt that the party would likely reject him (due to working for an emperor that held a less-than-favorable reputation). Because he needed their help in accomplishing his goal, to reclaim the source of the emperor's power that was taken from him, he felt it necessary. Though, when they weren't in sight, he would often break out his powers in order to clean up a situation more quickly (plus, he enjoyed when he could cut loose, it gave him a thrill).

[Landrick]

If I may add an example to as it depends on the player, it also depends on the campaign. T o use a D&D adventure I was in. I was playing a Lawful good Paladin, where as my friend was playing a Lawful evil Warlock. The goal of the campaign was to defeat a Black Dragon. That was slaughtering a town. The rest of the party consisted of a Lawful Neutral Ranger, and a Chaotic Good Drow Cleric who's back story had her rescued by a group of Human's when I Mind Flayer was talking control of her home. Each of the characters had different goals for wanting to defeat the Black Dragon. The Paladin a sense of duty, to protect innocents, and to slay the dragon, the Ranger was being paid by survivor's of the town to deal with the Dragon. The Drow because her adoptive parents where killed by the dragon, and the Warlock cause he wanted to establish order to the town, and deal with the Black Dragon since the Dragon was hindering the advance of the forces of Hextor, on a kingdom of Heironious. The Paladin and the Warlock actually got along pretty well. They eventually realized that their goals where the same it was just their methods behind it. They wanted the town to have order. But the methods behind it, and what happened to the town was different. In fact the Chaotic Good character got in the most argument's with the Lawful Evil.

Now since form what I've read of the FFd20 materiel. Since their is a lack of Deity's in here. But for example we can use my favorite Villain Exdeath as an example. Exdeath is Neutral Evil in my groups opinion since he seems to be True Evil. And is not discriminating against destroying Good or Evil. He wants to destroy everythign including himself an dreturn it to the Void. Cecil as a Dark Knight who's Lawful Evil, Zidane who is Chaotic Good, and Aerith who is Lawful Good, and and Shadow who is Chaotic Neutral. Could all have a reason to go off and adventure together to stop Exdeath. Each for their own reason's. But let's say we change Cecil's mentality to something more like Kefka's who is Chaotic Evil. But leave him as a Dark Knight. The Dark Knight who is Chaotic Evil is more likely to attack the party, and try to kill them, and join the Neutral Evil Exdeath like villain. Since Chaotic Evil would see the destruction of the whole world as the biggest party that ever happened. Where Lawful would be angry since this is threatening the balance and order that keeps society together. As a rule of thumb Good and Evil can more traditional get along better than Law and Chaos.

Also when it comes to the player. You need to make sure say for the FFd20 system that the person playing the Lawful Evil Dark Knight, and say if their is a Lawful Good Holy Knight. Are going to be able to see that the goal or mission of the campaign takes precedence over their disagreements if it threatens their world, or everything that they know as their world, and that they aren't going to try and smite each other for no other reason that they are opposite side's, and are unable to prioritize their enemy's or opposition correctly.

I hope that this helps explain how a Lawful Evil Character like a Dark Knight could work together with Good character's to accomplish a goal or mission. Once again Thank you guys for your time.

[Kupo]

Wow, very nice points, kupo!
I have to say, while it makes sense I have LE as a requirement, it doesn't always add up to good gameplay; you can turn from the path of the Holy Knight without becoming evil, after all. Perhaps instead make the requirement any non good alignment?

[Asteron Questar]

I always thought Cecil was LN, he just followed the king's orders.

I let my player be CN for my game, since i tried to avoid evil alignment.

Zeroth rule of DMing: If you don't like a rule, change it.