I don't want to sound mean but....

[luthercross]

Like i said I don't mean to be mean, but casters in this or more the spells in this game are weak to say the most. Now don't get me wrong when i did play a caster in D&D or what not I did play a Blaster type but in this any fighting type or just the fighter can get so close and just take the damage.

Now with that being said I reason i post this is I was just wondering if anyone else feels that the spells in this should do more then D6's. Now I could never do what the maker of this system did and i don't want to sound cocky or insult anyone but it just seems this system is very fighter type heavy that's all. thoughts?

[ZeronosVega]

Well, when concerns such as this come up, I feel it is best to do a meta-game analysis. For this particular case, we will look at two arrays; the first being magic damage at the minimum, average and maximum of a spell. The spells used with change as the level increases in order to signify character progression. The second arrays will look at the hit points of the mage and the knight classes, seeing as they have the potential for the lowest and highest HP based on static numbers. For this example, we will not include ability score modifiers nor class-granted abilities, as those are entirely variable and will just make this more complicated.

[code] Table: Magic Damage to HP Comparison
Level Spell Damage HP(Mage) HP(Knight) % of Total HP (Using Avg Dmg)
1 Fire: 2/4/7 10 30 40% | 13%
5 Fire II: 13/19/28 14/18/26 34/54/78 67% | 55%/35%/24%*
10 Fire Snake: 15/45/90 19/28/46 39/84/138 97% | 100%/54%/33%
15 Burn II: 15/60/120 24/38/66 44/114/198 91% | 100%/53%/30%
20 Ultima: 20/120/240 29/48/86 49/144/258 100% | 100%/83%/47%
[/code]

* From 5th level onward, the average damage of the listed spells removes 100% of a mage's minimum and average hit points. As such, it won't be listed.

Do note that this does not take into account the existence of meta-magic, which can ensure maximums or allow for greater dice pools. Also, many of these spells begin to carry secondary effects (i.e. the Burning status effect) which can cause a number of adverse side effects to a target. It is also worth mentioning that spells can be resisted or have their damage reduced due to barriers, armor or evasive actions (i.e. reflex saves).

As we can see, the damage does a sizable chunk no matter the progression. And considering the fact that the Knight has a horrible reflex save, we can assume that a majority of these attacks are going to hit for their rolled maximum rather than being halved. One of the key things to remember is that the mage typically won't be alone during combat. By having other players support the mage, you can see how certain threats could be easily removed with a little help. This is merely my opinion and if you feel that I have missed something, then please let me know. A system can only improve when there is positive criticism and discussion.

EDIT: We can also compare using monsters from the creature compendium at CR equal to the level of the caster. Instead of listing a specific monster per CR, I took the average HP (minimum, listed average and maximum) of all the creatures from the specified CR, as it gives a full range of data to compare with. Like in the table above, I used the average damage of the spells.

[code] Table: Magic Damage to HP Comparison
CR Avg. HP per CR % of Total HP
1 4/13/21 100%/31%/19%
5 35/69/98 54%/28%/19%
10 48/108/156 94%/42%/29%
15 240/375/510* 25%/16%/12%
22 330/555/780** 36%/22%/15%
[/code]

* Only the Phoenix Spawn was used here.
** World Weapons were the closest to CR 20.

Note: If there is an error in my calculations, do let me know so that I may correct it.

[chaoticangel97]

I can't give hard evidence but I can say that mages aren't weak in this system. I've GMed three Final Fantasy games so far successfully and the mages in those games seriously wrecked sh*t up when they started chucking spells. Seriously, the Black Mages are the characters I tend to look out for when I'm GMing cause they can really throw my encounters for a loop.

[luthercross]

Very well then I will give them another try. When you look at the numbers in that way then yes your right. But then you take a fighter with the right talents with things like back swing and being able to mover 30 and then full attack. Maybe when I break it down, the fighter in genial is so damn strong. {not the point though.}

But thank you for breaking it down like that, it brought some things to the light. ^_^

[ZeronosVega]

Very well then I will give them another try. When you look at the numbers in that way then yes your right. But then you take a fighter with the right talents with things like back swing and being able to mover 30 and then full attack. Maybe when I break it down, the fighter in genial is so damn strong. {not the point though.}

But thank you for breaking it down like that, it brought some things to the light. ^_^

That's just a benefit of being a melee class and being able to perform such feats can be found throughout any d20-based system. This is so that melee classes stand a chance from ranged nuke classes, though some spells in FFd20 have very large ranges, such as Fira being able to hit any target within 400 ft. + 40 ft./level.

Also, I included a new table which takes into consideration monsters found in the creature compendium.

[Viladin]

Also... especially Black Mages, have Black Magery talents that boost said damage as well FOR EVERY SPELL.

[ZeronosVega]

Also... especially Black Mages, have Black Magery talents that boost said damage as well FOR EVERY SPELL.

Yep. The tables I made above specifically left out such enhancements, as well as stat-based enhancements. So at level 1, a Black Mage could actually do a maximum of 12 damage (+5 Int modifier; natural 18 and +2 racial bonus) and it will only climb with additional abilities from classes.