Initiator archetypes

[Manly Man]

I know I made a thread on the Suggestions board about these, but I think I'm going to just put the archetypes I make here now. I'll put up what I'm working on, what's finished, and what I'm thinking of. All the finished archetypes are open to scrutiny and reviewing, and suggestions for other classes are more than welcome.

Sanctified Blade (Holy Knight archetype)
Dilettante (Red Mage archetype)
Tenebris Angelus (Dark Knight archetype)
Eblanese Ninja (Ninja archetype)
Genji Clansman (Fighter archetype)
Wartime Artist (Fighter archetype)
Enlightened Warrior (Monk archetype)
Martial Master (Black Belt archetype)
Stormbringer (Dragoon archetype)
Celestial Herald (Valkyrie archetype)
Landsknecht (Knight archetype)
Desperada (Gunner archetype) Credit to gamefreak180 for helping with this!
Primalist (Blue Mage archetype)
Handmaiden of Odin (Valkyrie archetype)
Quicksilver Coryphee (Dancer archetype)
Reaversworn (Dark Knight archetype)

[dairius_chi]

The Dilettante is saying I need permission to view it currently.

[dairius_chi]

Sanctified Blade:
Skills: I like adding some to the list, and while I always support getting more skill points for the martial classes there should be some kind of tradeoff. Commonly removing Heavy Armor/Tower Shield proficiency is how some Fighter Archetypes and reworks have done it, as a though.

Limit Break: I like the concept but it's a bit weird. Getting infinite free AoO is a bit much, could say for the duration they can add their Cha mod to the number of AoO they can make a round for the purpose of the limit break, or something. The distances shifting is also a bit messy, can AoO against any Evil foe coming within 30ft, can AoO against any foe taking hostile action against an ally within 20ft, getting to potentially unleash multiple Strike Maneuvers as retaliatory actions is far too strong- I'd say doing this ends the Limit Break prematurely... and it might just be better if they can only AoO foes within 30ft attacking their allies, keep everything in 30ft, much cleaner.

Maneuvers: I like the disciplines chosen, it should be worth noting that Sacred damage being converted to Holy fits, but anything that gives a Sacred bonus to damage would still be a modifier to the attack, rather than adding elemental damage.

Bonus Feats: I like some of the choices you made here, I think narrowing down 4/8 should be done as well since getting to choose ANY combat feat is a rather big boon, and 5 feats even if limited already outweighs the Nimbus of Light feature slightly... at least in my eye.

Stances: I like the concept, always loved the unqiue stances the PrC got, unsure about working them into a base class archetype but let's see how things go...

-Principality's Bass: Bonuses progress a bit too quickly, +2/+4 starting out is fine but instead of going +2/+4 every 5th level, how about +1/+1 every 4 after 1st? 5th +3/+5, 9th +4/+6, 13th +5/+7, 17th +6/+8? This is already a fair bit more than most if not all defensive stances give in sheer numbers. As for the 5ft step when missed, I'd personally add the stipulation that this removes some of your potential movement from the following round, limiting you to as many free steps as you have 5ft increments of movement. Doesn't eat up the actual move action, but if you step away 3 times then next round you move 15ft less for a move action, this wouldn't be a speed reduction so if running you just subtract 15 from the total.

-Throne's Mezzo-Soprano: Go from progressing too quickly to not progressing at all, and the mechanic is a bit... I dunno. I understand the intention but I don't like how it feels in my head >.> +10ft movement and a +2 bonus to Reflex saves maybe, with another +5/+1 at 6th, 12th, and 18th. Allies within 30ft gain half the benefits, and you can spend a Lay on Hands attempt to give allies within 30ft an instantaneous movement up to 5ft * cha mod(not to exceed their base land speed)? I know a lot of this sounds like it's coming from nowhere, it's just how I'd try and achieve the feel I'm picking up from the abilities.

-Archangel's Baritone: I like it, but again it doesn't progress which... there may be occasional stances that don't, but it's surely not a precedent so having two of them so close together feels out of place. Not much else to say, I like the mechanic, though I think Free actions are still technically limited to your own turn... that could be a 3.5 relic stuck in my head though. Simple as changing the wording to 'a free action you can use even during another's turn' or something to that effect, but less terrible. Reason I don't homebrew much, don't have the writing for it.

-Seraph's Contralto: Eh... it's intriguing, the bonus damage only applies once per Maneuver though, right? Rather than once per attack for the rare ones that could capitalize on that for insane amounts of bonus damage.

-Cherub's Tenor: Simple, I like it. Regeneration can get a bit scary at times but the duration is limited enough, not like you'd be able to just grow an arm back in 10 rounds or anything.

-Dominion's Countertenor: This feels more like a Maneuver than a stance, but using the Stance mechanic to justify multiple uses... that said it can work I guess, the limitation of not being able to use another Stance while shouting is a fair trade I suppose. Again it doesn't scale, but for this one I'm not quite sure how to make it so.

-Virtue's Soprano: Powerful, but as with a lot of these only affecting Evil targets helps keep it a bit more level. Is the save vs no-move a per round thing? Or once they fail they can't move period? And this simply disallows movement, not the dis-allowance of move-equivalent actions such as drawing or stowing a weapon, right?

Faithful Protection: Lots of free AoOs from the class... I'd have to insist this not allow you to make more than normal for a round, if a character is built around this they can take Combat Reflexes. Further, just getting infinite chances to deflect at your highest BaB means enemies will become less and less likely to get past with their iterative attacks while your defenses remain just as strong. AC is already there to do that... My suggestion to balance this one is, the parry attempt itself eats up one of your AoO, and the potential riposte (actual attack) is a free addition if they're within reach. For this one I'd also say that you should actually move up to the attacker, similar to the Sword Saint's Defensive Aura or whatever it is, the Limit Break having magic sword attacks is one thing but slamming that into a standard feature is a bit much.

Voices of the Gods: Normally I'd say a -3 penalty to a lot of stuff with no save is too powerful, but there are other instances of such a thing in FFd20. That said there should be a disclaimer that either you cannot use this more than once per encounter, or a foe cannot be affected by it more than once in a 24 hour period. With a 3 round duration there's nothing stopping a player from using the no-save penalty, regaining maneuvers, and then rinse-and-repeating it to essentially debuff everything near him permanently and without any chance for rebuttal.

Holy Vanquishing Strike: I like it, I mean it's powerful and world-shifting in the right use but that's what 9th level Maneuvers are supposed to be. A lot are just 'full-attack +xd6 damage on each strike' with some other potential added effects, but this is one single attack that honestly will deal less damage than a lot of capstones... so paralysis or basically a death effect are fine.

[Manly Man]

Thanks for the input. That's pretty much my favorite way of doing things, putting in a lot of good stuff and then having help in trimming down the fat instead of putting in something weak and insignificant and trying to patch it up; things come out a lot better in the end this way.

Dilettante should be accessible now, my bad!

Holy Knight:

Skills: I keep assuming that a lot of the Dark/Holy Knight abilities are pretty much copypasta of the (Anti)Paladin. Sanctified Blades lose their tower shield proficiency there. The higher skill points and better skill choice (should they lose Spellcraft? They don't have any disciplines that have Spellcraft as the discipline's skill, but the Tenebris Angelus gets to keep it from their own disciplines) are a good tradeoff for not being able to drag around your own little wall.

Limit Break: Went and edited that a good bit, yeah. I didn't implement everything you suggested, but a good chunk of it. The radius for evil enemies is the same, the radius for everything else is 15 ft., and initiating a strike as an AoO ends the limit break. Also, you get your Charisma modifier in free AoOs per round while it's in effect, instead of just unlimited there-is-no-escape-if-you-come-after-my-friends.

Maneuvers: Yeah, I had already intended that, and I thought it was implied well enough. Added some text for clarification.

Bonus Feats: What would you say to making 4th and 12th be Extra Lay On Hands or style feats (and whatever else in the feat chain you qualify for) related to any of your available disciplines? Like, let's say you wanted to take Silver Crane Style at 4th, you take Silver Crane Feathers as a regular feat at 7th, and then take Silver Crane Wing as the bonus feat at 12th? You'll still have to otherwise qualify for them, and it emphasizes the fact that Sanctified Blades are initiators, not just fancy beatsticks.

Did some editing, but I have to be off for a bit. I should be back tomorrow.

[dairius_chi]

I think losing Spellcraft fits since they also lose their Spellcasting.

New Limit Break looks good, it's still a powerful move to pull out in confined quarters but not insane battlefield control.

Maneuvers: It's easy to fall back on common sense on the parts of the player, but it's always better to address possible confusion for two instances of the same word, in this case a damage type and a bonus that can apply to damage... while minor I could see it being an issue for at least 1 person, somewhere out there.

Bonus Feats: I actually really like that, they still have to meet the prerequisite skill ranks but if they weren't grooming up for any Style Feats they can still just take Extra Lay on Hands. I'm a fan of the Discipline Style feats, even if they're not all top shelf, Iron Tortoise in particular is a good one.

I'll look over Dilettante later and see what I can find there, Red Mage with Maneuvers makes me smile though I expect it will be losing spellcasting- which while is the point I've always liked the idea of a class with 6th level casting and 6th level maneuvers.

[dairius_chi]

Looking over Dilettante- I was pleasantly surprised, it still has casting... only up to 4th level but that's as far as you need for most of the good buffs and whatnot. So right off the bat you get a heavily biased thumbs up from me

Limit Break: I like the concept of it... but when it gets to the swift/immediate things break down a bit cause not all of those actions are balanced correctly or should be shifted around... my suggestion would be giving the Red Mage an additional Standard action each round which can only be used to perform a Maneuver, OR a move action that can be used before or after performing a full-round action maneuver, AND an additional Immediate action for performing a Counter on each round while active.

For clarity: Extra counter each round, and either a free Standard Action Strike OR a free move before/after a Full-round Action Strike.

Alternatively, to kind of fit with the Red Mage's resource management, maybe the Limit Break should be something more along the lines of basically having infinite use of Maneuvers while active- meaning they aren't expended when performed, and don't have to be renewed. Little less punch to it but it'd let you use your best Strike round after round.

Martial Ruby Knowledge: With the change to Ruby Knowledge this comes out to +2 damage and +2 Save DC on every Maneuver (at least the ones that have Save DCs and deal damage), while more limited than spells this is a bit much from a single ability since they can take it twice. I'd say halve the bonus so you take it twice to get the full effects personally.

Accurate Initiation: This does muck up their RTA spells, might be smoother to just modify the ability to include Maneuvers rather than replace it.

Spell Combat: This actually doesn't really need to be listed since Spell Combat at core is only with a vanilla Full-Attack Action, and the Ruby Arcana mentioned modifying that would address its own changes.

Arcane/Animus: I like how this was implemented, blending multiple resources is always something I like to see.

Quick Learner: I am never a man to turn down more options.

Spellstrike: Good to keep this barred starting out, since a Strike + Spellstrike Element III spell + possibly Enspell I/II/III could really wreck face way too easily.

Ruby Arcana: Simple, effective, once again blending the innate features with new mechanics. Altogether I like how these were implemented.

For Martial Spellcaster I'd suggest putting a minimum level of at least 9th, but more likely 12th since combining a full-attack Maneuver with Spell Combat is rather potent.

Fighter Training: I think keeping this at class level -3 is better, I mean using Initiator level -3 means it benefits multiclassing a bit more, but chances are if you've already taken 11 Red Mage than heavily multiclassing isn't in the game plan.

Twinstrike: About what I expected, and that is not a bad thing.

Actual Maneuver progression: I always like having more Stances, but I guess that's what the Advanced Study feat is meant to help with. I was worried at first cause I thought it was going to have 4th level spells and 9th level maneuvers, but maneuvers being easier to recharge makes them a more renewable resource so 4th/6th is a better balance. Lots of flavor to this...

[Manly Man]

For the Dilettante, I actually have them get 4th-level casting instead of 6th, and 6th-level maneuvers. They do, however, have spells from the get-go and full caster levels, so they don't get casting like a Dark/Holy Knight. They still get to have relevant spells at a decent level (4th-level casting is still very significant, and you're getting it six levels before the Xxxx Knights do) though, and 6th-level maneuvers are where they can still be relevant in the upper levels. I went with the lesser spellcasting like that because there are two Ruby Arcana you can take that will let you use strike maneuvers with either Spell Combat or Spellstrike, and although you can't use them in conjunction with each other unless you have both of them. There are plenty of other Arcana that are quite useful as well, so you have to decide whether or not you want to spend them to wring as much damage as you can out of your limited spells and maneuvers. They aren't going to be getting the smash-a-mountain-into-dust maneuvers, and they aren't getting their strongest blasting spells either, and so they can still be doing about as much damage with these in concert with each other as a full initiator would be doing with their 9th-level maneuvers, which keeps them viable as a primary source of damage by the end of the adventure.

I still need to specify what energy type that the Elemental Flux maneuvers get changed to when you attune yourself. I think that, for example, if you choose to attune yourself to either Ice or Water, you still use the Water version of the maneuvers for the extra effects, just that the elemental damage is whichever one of the two you chose? Similarly for Air, you would do either Lightning or Wind damage (you can still only attune yourself to either Lightning or Wind, you don't get both when you choose to make your maneuvers use Air effects).

And, back to the Holy Knight:

Stances: These will, admittedly, seem kind of wonky, but I'm trying to get them to be as close to the powers the angels that the stances represent have used in real world scriptures, such as the Seraphim having bodies that shine so brightly that if they did not use their six wings to cover all but their faces, those who look upon them have their eyes melt out. I'm actually doing something similar with the Tenebris Angelus, giving them stances based off of the Malebranche (including our four beloved Elemental Fiends).

-Principality's Bass: Honestly, your suggestion sounds a lot more balanced than I had originally done, and still keeps the same feel. Got it switched around.

-Throne's Mezzo-Soprano: I went and made this one scale, to the point that you can eventually get a total of +30 ft. at 17th, which doesn't really seem like much by that point, since you've had people able to fly for more than half of your career, and fly faster than you could normally run in battle yourself. Lay On Hands expenditure gets you another +20 ft. (might make it another +10 ft.) and grants your buddies within 10 ft. of your starting point a move action. Any other opinions on this would be welcome.

-Archangel's Baritone: I assume that because the stance lets you use a counter as a free action against evil enemies, it's already apparent that it's supposed to be used on your enemy's turn? There aren't any counters I can think of that are geared for usage on your own turn, since they require a trigger of some sort.

-Seraph's Contralto: It's supposed to apply once per maneuver; I'd designed it as something of an alternative to Smite Evil, albeit somewhat weaker (so far as I know, since it's bonus elemental damage, which is subject to things like resistances and absorption, rather than the straight extra damage that Smite Evil gives) in a couple ways. Clarified with a little splort of text at the end there.

-Cherub's Tenor: Thanks. I'd gone and based it off of the power of the 6th-level Silver Crane stance that gets you straight-up Fast Healing 5. Since this one doesn't restore as much health (initially, at least), and you have to spend Lay On Hands to get the regeneration, having it be one level lower doesn't seem to hurt much. Stance of the crane knight, which is also 5th-level, is Hell to compete with (DR 10/evil, 60 ft. fly speed, and something else I'm forgetting), so temporary regeneration doesn't sound that overpowered in comparison.

-Dominion's Countertenor: This one having the usage limit was based off of the Immortal Fortitude stance in Tome of Battle, which let you avoid death three times before you automatically disengaged. In my opinion, it doesn't really need to scale all that much anyway, since augmenting it with Lay On Hands can cover pretty much any part of that on its own.

-Virtue's Soprano: This one I intended to shut off all move actions, but be a save-per-round thing. It's about as effective of a lockdown as the Warder's Defensive Focus ability, fondly referred to by many as the "Zone of Nope". This requires a save, and is also supernatural, so getting it as a stance that you have to be pretty far up there to get seems fair enough to me.

Faithful Protection: I thiiink I got it down at this point now, but I'm not entirely sure. Another read on it would be welcomed.

Voices of the Gods: This boost only lasts for one round now. So yeah, you could keep them debuffed pretty well for that one round, but then you'd have to recover your maneuvers, and that round would be when the effect ends (and thereby lets the enemies have their turn again), and then have to use it again. Two rounds would make it still be very powerful, but not as bad as three, since they'd still have their turn come up the same round that you could initiate it again; if two sounds fair, then I'll switch it to that. The nausea effect, which would be the real killer, has a save attached to it and it only lasts for one round though, so that wouldn't be quite so powerful of a lockdown technique.

Holy Vanquishing Strike: That was pretty much exactly what I was aiming for. I based it off of Silver Crane's capstone maneuver, which has pretty similar effects, and is just as much of an OH SHI- for pretty much any bad guy. The upside to this one over the Silver Crane capstone is that it can be used with ranged attacks as well, although the damage is lessened.

[Manly Man]

Aaand whoops, took a little long there on making the post, I'll go through the Dilettante stuff here right quick.

[Manly Man]

Alright, so...

*knucklecrunch*

Limit Break: Modified it a bit to grant something similar, but less potentially wonky. I also made it so that you get the extra strike that requires a standard action as a swift action instead, so as to help avoid quite so much overlap with Twinstrike.

Martial Ruby Knowledge: Since they get higher-level maneuvers than spells, yeah, that does seem fair; having a DC 20 base save on your 6th-level maneuvers should be earned, since you can typically pump out more of them per round than you can with spells.

Accurate Initiation: I decided to swap the spells out for maneuvers on this one since you're getting higher level maneuvers than spells, as well as a lot of 6th-level Elemental Flux maneuvers competing pretty easily with 4th-level blasting spells, and that's if they're not outright better. Besides, a Black Mage can reliably land RTA spells, and they don't even have a decent BAB. Having both seems kind of overkill to me, but maybe some other peoples' opinions would help me decide on this.

Spell Combat: Duly noted.

Arcane/Animus: Thanks.

Quick Learner: :3

Spellstrike: :3

Ruby Arcana: I'll switch Martial Spellcaster to have a Red Mage 9 prerequisite. It could even be useful for a regular Red Mage who takes Advanced Study or Martial Training I-VI.

Fighter Training: Yeah, it's already better than what you get as a vanilla Red Mage with just class levels, and so, at most, you'd save a level or two with it being based off of your initiator level instead. Switched.

Twinstrike: :3

The maneuver and stance progression is pretty much just copypasta of how DSP already swaps out maneuvers for classes anyway. The Rubato, a Bard archetype, loses their spells entirely in exchange for maneuvers, so considering that FFd20 is typically a higher power level than Pathfinder, Dilettantes keeping their spells (albeit at lower levels and with less MP) doesn't seem so bad. It also really helps keep the flavor that they want to do ALL the things, even if they aren't the very best at it.

[dairius_chi]

Dilettante:
Limit Break: I like the changes, much cleaner in my opinion and still very useful. Plus if you really wanted even more Counters or Boosts there's a Red Magery that can give additional Swift or Immediate actions.

Accurate Initiation: Even with spellcasting limited to 4th level, the majority of their spells that need Precise Shot are the <Element> I/II/III, and being able to aim the Elemental Flux RTA but not your magical elemental RTA seems strange in my mind.

Martial Spellcaster: Dear god I hadn't even thought of using this with a standard Red Mage using Martial Training >.> Those feats are a godsend, I love everything about Path of War so hoping I get more chances to make use of this.

Sanctified Blade:
Archangel's Baritone: The main issue is just that, I BELIEVE free actions are not normally permitted outside of your own initiative, it's merely an issue of wording rather than intention... I could be wrong on this though in which case it's nothing to worry about >.>

Seraph's Contralto: Oh yeah, it's weaker than Smite Evil- that gives bonus attack/damage and bypasses all forms of DR (technically even DR/epic by RAW), but the benefit of yours is that it isn't limited to one target.

Cherub's Tenor: Yeah, all in all the trades are pretty even. Might even add an option at a much higher level (15 minimum) to have the Regeneration actually be useful for regrowing limbs or organs. End the stance as a full-round action and expend a Lay on Hands to regrow a limb in a number of minutes equal to 10 - 1/2 your Initiator level (min 1). Again, kind of out of nowhere but just a thought I had when thinking on the flavor of the stance.

Dominion's Countertenor: Fair enough, and these are unique 'stances' so it's not like they all have to follow the more common outlines.

Virtue's Soprano: Perhaps the penalties it should impose are 'speed reduced to 0ft' and 'staggered' then. This way even if they chose to use their move action they couldn't move with it, and they only get 1 move/standard action a round on a failed save.

Faithful Protection: Looks good, when you first get it maybe not the strongest thing but it progresses at a fair rate.

Voices of the Gods: Having it be 1 round helps balance it even if it's reusable, maybe worth noting the penalty to saves they can't resist doesn't apply to the Nausea save? It is a pretty nasty condition and getting an automatic -15% to negate it is pretty harsh.

[dairius_chi]

Something comes to mind with the Dilettante and its Spellstrike mechanic, namely... it doesn't need to be limited much like Spell Combat. Spellstrike allows you to channel a cast spell through a regular attack, to perform a Spellstrike with a Maneuver would require holding the charge of the spell for the following round (or spending a Hero Point, if used, to gain an extra Maneuver that same round), the Dilettante limit break also would allow the casting of a spell through a Maneuver in one round but by basically giving up a potential attack.

Also, any Red Mage taking the Martial Training feats can replicate these same methods... meaning it makes no sense to disallow it specifically for the archetype built around it. And personally, taking two rounds or a Hero Point(or a quickened spell, forgot that one) to pull it off... I'd say is kind of worth it.

That said, I have a suggestion to alter the Eldritch Striker Arcana. Using the Arcana allows you to cast a spell and perform a maneuver as part of the same Standard Action but only for use with Spellstrike. No using this as a workaround to cast Cura and get an attack off at the same time, has to be a damaging or enfeebling spell that can be used via Spellstrike, and has to be a Standard action Strike Maneuver.

[Manly Man]

That... is a brilliant idea. I'll edit that in right now. I think I'll still leave the mention of Spellstrike not working with maneuvers, if only because I get the terrible feeling that it would be brought up (and cause much confusion) otherwise.

Also went and clarified the stuff about Elemental Flux and Sleeping Goddess, for if and when.

Also also, I'm thinking of a Fighter archetype that lets them pick any three disciplines they want, so long as they aren't supernatural.

[dairius_chi]

I'd say the Fighter should get a fair bit more, I like the idea of picking any X as long as they aren't supernatural, but the Myrmidon archetype they made has I think 7 or 9 available? While it's PF Fighter and is overkill since at most they'd likely be grabbing 2-3 disciplines, I'd say being able to pick any 5 could give the freedom and vast options that the Martialest of Martial classes should have.

The only issue with limiting Spellstrike and Maneuvers even without the Arcana, is that a regular Red Mage with Martial Training isn't limited in such a way. They are paying feats to get Maneuvers, but the Archetype is supposed to be the 'Martial Red Mage', and while spending 2 rounds, a Hero Point, or a Quickened Spell to get off a Spellstrike Maneuver is action or resource generally a bad idea- the fact that a vanilla Red Mage CAN and a Martial Adept Red Mage CAN'T just doesn't sit right.

EDIT: Eldritch Striker should remove 'range of touch' from the spell channeled, since FFd20 doesn't possess many Touch Range spells other than some PF-translated buffs. Spellstrike works with single-target ranged spells so this should too.

Also the Sleeping Goddess should probably have some notation... Power Points are more plentiful than MP, so I'd say the limit on MP you can spend is 1/2 your level rather than full level, and each MP spent counts as 2 PP for Augmenting things. The amount of bonus PP/MP you get for having maneuvers should be fine though, it's not a lot but the class already has less than normal so this gives a decent buffer.

[Manly Man]

Edited the Sanctified Blade a bit; Virtue's Soprano got a bit of a nerf, but then again, being stunned at high levels is a freaking death sentence, so this is a bit more fair. Cherub's Tenor also has this added on:

"At 13th level, you may expend two uses of lay on hands as a full-round action to restore a number of points of ability damage equal to the number of hit points that would be restored by fast healing to all of your ability scores. At 15th level, you may instead apply it to restore ability drain, albeit half as much. At 17th level, you may either remove all ability damage, remove the full number of ability drain, or regenerate all missing parts of your body. Augmenting it in any of these three ways ends the stance immediately, and you cannot initiate it again for 1d4 hours afterward."

Thoughts?

As for the Dilettante, I went and tweaked the Eldritch Striker arcana; also, both arcana are available to Red Mages who get maneuvers from multiclassing or taking Advanced Study or Martial Training feats. I think I'll keep the Sleeping Goddess stuff as-is (the spend 1/2 level and MP=2 PP seems a little iffy to me, but that's mostly because you can restore MP more easily without resorting to a bunch of tricks, unlike with psionics. The Red Mage even has a thing that lets them turn HP into MP, so it's not like they'll be really short on MP), although I'll put in that 1 MP Spell also applies to maneuvers that require either animus, arcane points, or MP (the maneuvers are all treated as though they were augmented to the maximum that the Dilettante is allowed).

[dairius_chi]

Virtue's Soprano: I like the changes, stunning for a duration like that can indeed be a hefty penalty when it's at a level when the rogues have 8d6 Sneak Attack and whatnot.

Cherub's Tenor: I might add that the Sanctified Blade can only benefit from the ability damage/drain removal or limb regrowth once a day?

Dilettante: That is a fair point, Red Mage has a lot of recycling potential and the archetype didn't remove Convert so they can afford to pay a little more. Having 1 MP spell apply is a nice touch, might add that they are still limited to 1 MP/level on augmenting (since that system running off MP is 1/level rather than 1/2 levels like with FFd20 spells)

[Manly Man]

Got the Cherub's Tenor thing fixed up. Also, since Fighters aren't proficient with tower shields, I'm not sure what to do for their skill points (personally, I feel that there should be no mundane class that gets less than 4 per level, but that's me). Any ideas?

[dairius_chi]

Hmm... well it all depends- what all were you removing for the Maneuvers? Was it something like all Fighter Talents? If the tradeoff is a little extreme getting +2 skill/level wouldn't be so hard to rationalize, Heavy Armor is an option... the Holy Knight already gets Iron Tortoise which is the only one sort of geared towards Heavy Armor + Shield (with a select few maneuvers) so limiting the Fighter to Light/Medium could work...

If you can't think of much to drop specifically for that, but as mentioned above the tradeoff is a little skewed but notsomuch, there was also the Lore Warden Archetype which got 2 extra skill points per level, but could only be allocated into Int-based skills. Giving them 2 skills/level that can only be allocated into Discipline Key Skills could be a way to do that. There are some useful ones like Acrobatics or Bluff, but it isn't complete freedom.

I'll agree though, the only classes that should be limited to 2+Int are int-based classes themselves with casting or something similar, like the Wizard or Magus (and Magus should probably still get 4+Int, it's like a more deadly Bard). But things as they are it's an unbalancing point to just make any archetypes one person creates have the skill boost when the base system and other archetypes don't support it.

And in the end as a Fighter there aren't a ton of skills you NEED to max out... but the lower levels it hurts not being able to get even 1 rank in a lot of key skills. Just another form of resource management.

[Manly Man]

It's nowhere near finished at the moment, but I'm linking the Tenebris Angelus anyway, so that way it can be discussed while I work on it. The stances are probably going to seem kind of powerful at first glance, but they all have a drawback of some kind to them as well to help balance them out.

Also, for fun, you can call them the Stances of Bad Latin if you want.

[Manly Man]

Aaand got all the Stances of Passio Malebranche for Tenebris Angelus done and ready for critique.

[Manly Man]

Tenebris Angelus is, for all intents and purposes, finished! I'm looking forward to some opinions.