Gill Toss

[timtheenchanter]

I didn't want to continue this conversation in the mistakes thread, but I feel the Gill Toss ability is woefully under-powered. Often times I miss things, so that could easily be the problem.

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Gil Toss (Su): At 1st level, a gambler places his material fortunes on the line to make an attack. A gambler may spontaneously spend 10 gil per gambler level, and make a ranged touch attack against any opponent within 30 feet. Money used in gil toss is lost, vanishing after use. He deals 1d6 points of physical damage (piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning, his choice). 

As part of this ability, he may also roll 1d4 to increase the risk. Rolling less than half the total of the die (1 or 2 on a d4, for example) reduces your damage by -2d6 and -1d6 respectively. Rolling higher (3 or 4 on a d4, for example) increases it by the appropriate amount (+1d6, +2d6). Taking a higher risk die may increase the results by much more damage, or much less (even negating the gambler’s damage entirely if he has lost more die than he had).

At 5th level, the gambler upgrades the die to a 1d6. At 10th level, the gambler can roll two dice and upgrades the die to a 1d8. At 20th level, the gambler can roll three dice and upgrades the die to a 1d10.
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So, as I read it, at level 1 you pay 10gill for an attack that deals 1d6 damage. each time you level up the price goes up, but the damage stays the same. this means that unless you risk it with the gamble dice, the ability actually gets worse as you level up.

As far as risking it is concerned, you roll 1d4, which becomes 1d6 at 5th level, 2d8 at 10th, and 3d10 at 20th level. Each step above average nets you bonus dice, while each step below average takes those dice away. This means you could get +/-2d6 for the d4, +/-3d6 for the d6, +/-4 for each d8, and +/-5 for each d10.

this means that while the cost of the ability gets higher each level, it only get better, and arguably so, at level 5, 10, and 20.

this increase in cost, as well as increase in level, means you have to roll higher and higher as you level up to make the attack worth it, as rolling below average overall means permanently loosing money and wasting your turn for nothing, which is already a risk, since you could miss the attack in the first place.

Using level 20 as an example, the most damage you could possibly do is 16d6, which isn't bad, but its not amazing, especially considering you have a 1 in 1000 chance to get it. On top of that, you have a 50% chance of doing no damage at all.

The gambler plays with rolls, and can do a bit to alter his chances, but I don't see any way this ability is anything but the worst idea in any situation.

If I read something wrong, please correct me, but if not, how can using this ability be a good idea, How can I get even acceptable damage out of it?

Any good gambler knows their are some bets you just don't take, and this seems like one of them.

[Viladin]

I didn't want to continue this conversation in the mistakes thread, but I feel the Gill Toss ability is woefully under-powered. Often times I miss things, so that could easily be the problem.

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Gil Toss (Su): At 1st level, a gambler places his material fortunes on the line to make an attack. A gambler may spontaneously spend 10 gil per gambler level, and make a ranged touch attack against any opponent within 30 feet. Money used in gil toss is lost, vanishing after use. He deals 1d6 points of physical damage (piercing, slashing, or bludgeoning, his choice). 

As part of this ability, he may also roll 1d4 to increase the risk. Rolling less than half the total of the die (1 or 2 on a d4, for example) reduces your damage by -2d6 and -1d6 respectively. Rolling higher (3 or 4 on a d4, for example) increases it by the appropriate amount (+1d6, +2d6). Taking a higher risk die may increase the results by much more damage, or much less (even negating the gambler’s damage entirely if he has lost more die than he had).

At 5th level, the gambler upgrades the die to a 1d6. At 10th level, the gambler can roll two dice and upgrades the die to a 1d8. At 20th level, the gambler can roll three dice and upgrades the die to a 1d10.
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So, as I read it, at level 1 you pay 10gill for an attack that deals 1d6 damage. each time you level up the price goes up, but the damage stays the same. this means that unless you risk it with the gamble dice, the ability actually gets worse as you level up.

As far as risking it is concerned, you roll 1d4, which becomes 1d6 at 5th level, 2d8 at 10th, and 3d10 at 20th level. Each step above average nets you bonus dice, while each step below average takes those dice away. This means you could get +/-2d6 for the d4, +/-3d6 for the d6, +/-4 for each d8, and +/-5 for each d10.

this means that while the cost of the ability gets higher each level, it only get better, and arguably so, at level 5, 10, and 20.

this increase in cost, as well as increase in level, means you have to roll higher and higher as you level up to make the attack worth it, as rolling below average overall means permanently loosing money and wasting your turn for nothing, which is already a risk, since you could miss the attack in the first place.

Using level 20 as an example, the most damage you could possibly do is 16d6, which isn't bad, but its not amazing, especially considering you have a 1 in 1000 chance to get it. On top of that, you have a 50% chance of doing no damage at all.

The gambler plays with rolls, and can do a bit to alter his chances, but I don't see any way this ability is anything but the worst idea in any situation.

If I read something wrong, please correct me, but if not, how can using this ability be a good idea, How can I get even acceptable damage out of it?

Any good gambler knows their are some bets you just don't take, and this seems like one of them.

For a measly cost, even if you do half of what you think you might roll, a ranged touch attack will almost always hit. And this is just part of a gambler's repertoire, it is, by no means, his main ability.

[timtheenchanter]

Not being his main ability is one thing, but the rolls it would take to make it useful at all... I don't see a way to make it reasonable to use.

[Viladin]

Not being his main ability is one thing, but the rolls it would take to make it useful at all... I don't see a way to make it reasonable to use.

Only thing I can say is that we agree to disagree. I see many useful applications for it. Damage isn't always the be-all end-all of useful abilities.

[timtheenchanter]

That was the main reason for my post, I want to know how it can be useful. What applications are there?

[Viladin]

That was the main reason for my post, I want to know how it can be useful. What applications are there?

I should rephrase that. What I meant is that the ability is useful. With the gambler's luck points and gambler tricks, you can make the Gil Toss in your favor. Its an (relatively) inexpensive attack in a pinch where, some places you can't bring weapons.