some questions, gonna update here and there as I go

[Zwordsman]

howdy howdy. I feel sorta bad making a new thread just to ask a questin but. I guess I'm doing it anyway..

So on various races, for chemist favored bonuse they have"Chemist: Add +1/4 to the chemist's damage rolls with thrown weapons"
so that applies to bombs, or thrown knives etc.
however it would not apply to alchemical items (like artic wind) nor would it apply to a bomb shot with Alchemical bullet or it's improved version, the damage bonus would not increase right? it becomes aprojectile not a thrown item.


also
Focused Aim (Ex): At 1st level, as a swift action, the gunner can spend 1 grit point to gain a bonus on all firearm damage rolls equal to her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1) with all firearm attacks she makes until the end of her turn. At 7th level, when she uses the dead shot deed, she multiplies this bonus by the number of hits she made while rolling the Dead Shot attack.
If you take the archetype canonner that lets you do Grit off of Int. is this deed suppose to be altered to give int not wis damage? or is it meant to stay?


Lastly a questoin on a Discovery.
Crude Bomb (Ex): The chemist can throw non-magical bombs. These function as standard bombs, but deal 1d4 points of damage, plus 1d4 points of fire damage for every odd-numbered level.
Is this meant as a normal alternative to damage (like acid bomb or ice bombs)
or. is this meant to give the whole feature again?

As it reads, it almost sounds like it gives you a whole 'nother set of bombs to throw per day.
Which is silly as a normal chemist. But. as an apothecary it would fit awesomely.
But I assume it is not meant to give you a whole 'nother' set of bombs?

[dairius_chi]

-Bonus damage on Alchemical/Projectile Bombs: Correct, most Alchemical items are Ranged Touch Attacks and wouldn't benefit as they run off spell range rather than range increments. Something like an Acid Flask or Alchemist's Fire would benefit though. And yes, when using the Explosive Missile or Grenade Gun discoveries, the damage bonus would not apply with Rules as Written. I personally would allow it to benefit the Bomb Damage, but ultimately it's the GM call on that one.

-Focused Aim: As is written it would still run off Wisdom for the bonus damage, but it's heavily implied that situations like that would alter all Grit features to run off Int instead... just not flat out stated. Just a case of Rules as Written vs Rules as Intended, something even PF has issues with at time, and as a byproduct, FFd20.

-Crude Bombs: No, this does not give you a second pool of Bombs, it merely lets you choose to have them deal less damage for the benefit of being Extraordinary rather than Supernatural, this allows them to be used in Anti-Magic Fields unlike regular bombs.

As this is a discovery that alters your bombs, an Apothecary couldn't benefit from it since they do not have Bombs to use. Some GMs might let you take this and then burn Field Medicine uses to fuel the Bombs, though they'd probably still deal damage and have their Reflex save based on Int instead of Wisdom... as is though, not technically legal.

[Zwordsman]

haha i'll just continue this here instead of new thread... sorry for the bother! I read most ffd20 stuff laatee at night or earrly morning so im' never quite sure if i'm misunderstanding so better to ask.. cause it's damn cool stuff. I hoe to play sometime
SO then i looked at technomancer.

Am I right that almost all the class abilities require gil?
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Chemical Mixture: This whole subset of abilities allows you to spend an actxion + Gil x mixture level in order to do the effect right? So a lv 2 gunpowder bomb requires 1000gil and a standard action to make? (with a few wayso f lowering cost slightly) Most items do mixture level amount of dice. So anyone who played it. did you use this much or did it cost too much to really ever use? I'm worried about that.
These are non magical items? So you can not create them using the salvage ability?
additionally: the level is known mixtures -1. So at lv 4 you start with 2 known, so your mixture level is 1, then at lv 7 you gain another mixture, so lv 7 you hae mixture 2. so that gunpowder bomb would do 4d6 damage instead of 2d6. for 1000gil? or a grease chrlorine bomb would do 2d6 for 2 rounds to radious of 10ft, and then 1d4 poison effect con damage, forr 300gil?
or incrase the level by 1, for double the cost.

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Invent: you get invent points, they are not spent but just are the max points you can use in an invention. Right? Then for every point of invention you have on an invention,, it takes/adds 1 hr and 50gil?
"Technomancers can invent, mix, and match Busters, Constructs, Gadgets, and Suits"
that mention of mix. Is it the phrase "mix and match: or is refering to chemical mix? The comma makes me think it's referring to mix. but there is no reference of invent points with chemical mixttures.

Are busters specifically modeled after any particularly weapon? or is it suppose to look like wahtever you happen to want it to look like?
The cost of making a Buster Is only the amount of invent points you use on it? I.e. A brand new buster. I stick projectile range and Blast Radius on it and damnage die (as I assuem you have to have it) Yo ucan also enchant it. Do you have to pay 300gold to masterwork this item first. or does the line about counting as magic allow you to go straight to enchanting?

(Note: Blast RAdius says it requis thrown weapon or projectile weapon. but it should probably say "requires projectile or thrown range buster schematic" or something like that. Since as near as I can tell you have to buy those in order for it to be valid)
Projectile range: 2points. Blast Radius 3pts, Damage 3pts. Total points=8pts.
So thecost of creating this buster would be 8x50gil=400gil and 8hrs of work Creating a weapon that does :
1d6 force damage, 20/x2 30ft range up to 10 increments, AOE(blast radius) of 10ft square. Light weapon, 4lbs

if I had the same weapon that did elemental damage, it would be valid for explosive expert (due to reflext save) and add int to damage?
Smnith Expertise automatically applies to busters?

Though i'm not entirely sure if thats 10ft square, centered on the target, means it hitst he pain target and every square that touches that square.. or what..
It's a full round to reload this. But what is the ammo? It's doing force damage so it sounds like just a magicy sciency blast.. But earlier it mentions crafting ammo, as if sling bullets. So do you need to carry sling ammo? or do you absolutely have to make the ammo yourself? Im not even sure what craft it is to make sling bullets off hand.

So one item. can I pay for ranged, and melee things.. and make something along the lines of a gunblade that does both as I wish?

Does one have to remake a buster when they gain more invent points? or can you add on..
I ask because if you have to remake it each time to add more.. then if you ever enchant it, you'll lose the enchantment when you remake it.
So potentially every level you have to pay for abrand new version of your buster(s). Or. does it allow you to just 'add on" new features without deconstruting. (thus avoiding paying for the same weapon every level, and realistically being afraid to ever enchant it)

Can you have as many busters as you want? It sounds like it.(suit referneces mutliple) if you pay the cost. seems like there is no maximum number of busters.. Which is awesome.


Buster blueprint idea: allowing it to connect to a normal weapons to add a function. I.e you could attach what i built above to a gun blade to add the ability to fire force blasts from the blade. (if attaching a melee to a melle. you'd have to chose which damage to do. but no need to drop a weapon). it would make a cool attachment feature. It'd be neat to atttach one of each element to say a pistol to make elemental shots on the fly..maybe abit strong though
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So.. gadgets confuse me abit. It replkicates wands, rings, rod, staves,wonderous items. So it can't replicate say alchemical items right?
1invent point per 1k gold. So if I wanted to replaicate say a magic wand that does some spell, and it costs 3000gold. Thats 3 invent points, and I could make it, using my own stats (presumably) for 150gold? or less wit hthe discount stuff.

If you had Thrifty EX and precision gadgets; Would you apply each discount
Gadgets: The initial gil cost of any gadgets invented is reduced to only 3/4 the normal amount.
Thrifty (Ex): The technomancer can decrease the cost in gil, including the initial cost, of creating an invention by 1/10.
The way it sounds. is. You take the original cost, find 10% of it, then find 3/4th cost. Then you put them together. So 100, turns into 75, then minus 10. to make 65.
I wasn't sure if you did each to the original cost or if you were suppose to do it to hte new cost. but pretty sure its adjust the original cost each.


-----------------
Suits seem very straight forward. You yourself have to create a masterwork armour of some type. Then you pay the normal invent points x 50gil for the features you add on.

Though: Buster slot shoulder makes mention of a two handed buster. I would point out that nothing in the buster upgrades specifies it changes from a light weapon-which are always one handable. So even if you made it a reach buster it's techinally a one handed reach buster. You can two hand it but nothing requires it.. So I'm not sure why it mentions it. Except possibly as a way to get a two0handed str damage bonus option I guess.

[dairius_chi]

-Chemical Mixtures: You got that right

-Invent: Correct on pricing and time, but mix was not meant to apply here for the Mixtures, it's just for Suits, Busters, Gadgets, and Constructs.

-Busters: They can look like whatever weapon you desire, but try to have it make sense for the design and intention.

--Reading over the ability I think it's meant to bypass the 'Masterwork before Enhancing' requirement, but I could be wrong. If you had the Masterful Working talent it would eliminate any cost increase for doing so.

--You are correct, the wording on Blast Radius Buster requirements need some reassessment.

--Force Damage is an Energy type, so it qualifies for Explosives Expert without needing Elemental damage dice.

--Smith Expertise would apply to any Busters made AFTER you acquire it, so you'd have to build a new one or rebuild your current for it to benefit.

--A 10ft radius is centered on an intersection between 4 squares, and hits everything within 10ft of that square.
http://i.stack.imgur.com/AoXda.gif

--The ammo is crafted by you using an appropriate Craft Skill. Maybe Weaponsmithing, maybe Firearms, up to the GM, and the cost/time involved is the same as if you were crafting Sling Bullets.

--Yes, a Buster can have both Melee and Ranged capabilities. The Ranged wouldn't benefit from Strength modifiers, obviously, but otherwise you could have something like this. As is currently feats and abilities that work with Gunblades would not benefit a Buster, but some GMs may allow it.

--You simply choose to add on to the Buster by dedicating the gp and the time, you don't have to Deconstruct it but to remove any assigned abilities you'd have to.

--You can have as many Busters as you wish, but understand that they all share the same pool of Invent Points, so you could have multiple weak ones, or 1-2 big guns/swords/whatever.

--Blueprint idea sounds kind of cool, but the majority of that is stuff that Materia already does and the idea of being able to simply attach your Buster to any weapon creates questions as to why it has such a mutable form. For the moment, likely something you'd have to run by your GM for approval.

-Correct on the pricing of gadgets, if you made a 3k wand it would cost you 150gil and 3 Invent Points, which would then be invested into the Wand until the charges were all spent or you deconstructed it.

-Thrifty/Precise Gadgets: The larger reduction is applied first, so 100 to 75, then the lower reduction is applied to the new amount, so 67.5, rounded up to 68.

-"If a Buster is made into a ranged weapon, you choose from one-handed and two-handed..." Quote from the ability, the mention of two-handed Busters on the Shoulder Slot Suit ability is just if you decided to build it as such.

--In fact you cannot two-hand a Melee Buster, since you cannot two-hand light weapons. And yes, while a Light Reach Weapon is an odd thought, the likelyhood is that it becomes some kind of energy whip. Some GMs might let you choose to make a melee Buster 1-handed so that it can be 2-handed for bonus damage, but as is currently? Not an option.

[Viladin]

Its always nice when Dai is around. I never have to answer any questions.

In fact, Dai, I gave you Super Moderator status.

[dairius_chi]

Its always nice when Dai is around. I never have to answer any questions.

In fact, Dai, I gave you Super Moderator status.

Holy poop, that was unexpected >_>

To be fair there were still a couple parts I couldn't answer, like does the Buster have to be MWK to be Enchanted?

And how does one determine whether a Melee Buster is 1-H or 2-H since it's only listed as Light, and the only thing that chances that is becoming a Projectile(firearm/crossbow/whatever else).

[Zwordsman]

Yea. Dairius is awesome. Thank you both for stopping by also! Lots of nice answers

Oh thanks. I didn’t realize force counted as an energy type.. Neat! Too bad there isn’t a sonic damage option. This class is great for recreating specific characters from things…
Oh! I didn’t even realize It didn’t occur to me. Invention points are per “type” of ability. Not per item? I.e. share the max points between all your busters. And then all suits. And then all gadgets? Or. Is it “invention points are shared between all inventions” so if you had 8 invention points. You had to be sure your buster, suit, and gadgets all together don’t go over 8?
Thanks for the quick and solid info!
I hope sometime I can find another game to try this class out in.. it is very cool.
I’m still going to use this to make Edgar sometime maybe.

[Luphey]

As far as I am concerned, sonic damage would be force damage, but if you are looking for sonic specifically, one of our members here put together a class that uses sonic damage. Sonamancer, can't remember who put it together exactly but I'll link it.

Edit:
http://www.finalfantasyd20.com/ffd20/sho...hp?tid=306

The Frozen Moogle put it together.

[Viladin]

Its always nice when Dai is around. I never have to answer any questions.

In fact, Dai, I gave you Super Moderator status.

Holy poop, that was unexpected >_>

To be fair there were still a couple parts I couldn't answer, like does the Buster have to be MWK to be Enchanted?

And how does one determine whether a Melee Buster is 1-H or 2-H since it's only listed as Light, and the only thing that chances that is becoming a Projectile(firearm/crossbow/whatever else).

Any item that wants to be enchanted has be masterwork first.

As far the second question, uh.. I would say thats up to the player to decide and go with that accordingly. Or GM call.

[Zwordsman]

I was rereading chemist now to decide which does my idea better (Magic gunner) chemist or technomancer.
and I noticed that I failed ot notice this ability last time

Mix (Ex): At 9th level, as a full-round action, a chemist can mix two alchemical items together for a dual effect or create a new alchemical item of a higher tier. When creating a new alchemical item, the chemist must have two alchemical items of the same tier (1 or 2) which then creates any alchemical item of a higher tier. The chemist must make a Craft (alchemy) skill check (DC 20 for tier 1, DC 25 for tier 2, and DC 30 for tier 3) or both potions are ruined.

So.. I can make eye drops (like 50gold to craft both or something), then combine that to make a tier 2 item worth a lot more. and it won't disappear or anything?


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If so that probalby does my idea much better... Though it sure allows some gil bypassments. Considering I think if im reading this right I can use craft rolls and 50gil to turn eyedrops into a 2nd level ether. Sure you have to be a lv 9 chemist of course. Noclue if that is a balance issue or not though but felt like mentioning it. At first I thought maybe only the chemist was able to use it (on themselves or on targets, or via bullets); I'll likely play it that way and not hand things out like candy. Unless they spend their own momney on the craft cost.. and my gm doesn't mind it. Hate to throw off the gil values he had in mind.

It is neat that you could in theory, use the free alchemical items per day ability to combine into a higher level thing, a few levels before your normally able to.
not really usable in battle but post battle, good for healing or mp recharge. Or i guess a well timed opening "magic shot"
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As my main concern was gil cost.. but if I can make teir 2 or 3 alchemical items (To stick on bullets) cheaper like that.. I think it'll work better than technomancer based (which gives me one awesome damaging weapon, but less modularity).
also.. amusingly.. I can make a merciful (if enchantment exists in my game haven't asked yet) pistol, loaded with rounds that have a double dose of Cure potion to do 2d8+10healings

Though these are pretty darn costy bullets.. but it feels pretty cool, and maybe a bit outlaw star though (not that its a bad thing really), plus the innate grenades can be used majority of the time (likely standard grenade for me will be force. Or status effects (poison, confuse etc. as it scales much better than the items). The alchemical item version can do a bit more damage and save me discoveries for other elements
insofar as I know I can't "double load" a bullet with an alchemical item and a bomb. even with grenade gun. So no super mega bullet but its pretty darn neat anyway.
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alchemical bullet/grenade gun. I can premake the alchemical item bullet, but then i have to take whatever loading action i have (move, swift, etc, rapid reload applies) to load the bullet. right? I don't get to "load and fire" as a standard action like the bomb version.

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I really wish this style of alchemical items (even if it was specific to a class) and the technomancer existed in pathfidner..
the chemist is soo much cooler with the alchemical items than alchemists with infusions.

but a question:Luck Mallet: contact; cures Mini status; moderate healing; moderate healing; CL 6th; Craft Alchemical Item; esuna; Price 300 gil.
the "moderate healing; moderate healing" listed in this item and various others. Is simply how they detect via detect magic?

Force buster guy...
Or magic bullet rifle (or shotgun, with shot shells and magic slugs if small area campaign), and a "support" pistol.
the techonmancer will use the crafted explosives more effectively... but only a little
Leaning towards chemist I think.

Thanks for all the awesome info on stuff!
Ah I hope we level faster!

[dairius_chi]

-Mix: I think the intention was using similar items, like using two Potions to make a Hi-Potion, or something similar. Two Status healing items to make a Remedy. Yes, it saves a lot of Gil and only one class is capable of doing it, no, you cannot combine temporary items from their Alchemical Mixture ability to fuel this, and IF your GM allowed it the new item would only last the 1 round/level that Alchemical Mixture does normally.

-Correct, if you had a gun that dealt Nonlethal Damage and loaded it up with a couple healing items, as long as the Nonlethal damage didn't overpower the healing, it's basically just a healing shot (since Healing covers an equal amount of Lethal and Nonlethal damage at once). No, you cannot load a Bomb up with another Alchemical item.

If you were just using Bombs, I'd say that the Explosive Missile Discovery is the more efficient item, since Alchemical Bullet loses you the Int mod to damage conferred by Throw Anything.

-Alchemical Bullet/Grenade Gun: Yes, for standard Alchemical items you can make the bullet ahead of time and load it, the benefit is unlike a Bomb it lasts more than a round so you could have an entire 'clip' of Fire, Acid, Cold, or whatever else bullets. If using Alchemical Mixture though, the bullet would only retain the benefits for 1 round/level as normal on the temporary creations.

-Just a thought, it would lead to some reduced progression but you can try Multiclassing Technomancer and Chemist. Have a slightly less powerful Buster, but still better than most standard guns you'd get your hands on, and load specially modified rounds into it.

That's just if you wanted to try and find a way to do both.

[Zwordsman]

wow Dairius, your one speedy super mod!

Hmm I hadn't actually considered combining..
I actually had forgot that if you made a ranged buster it used bullets (sorta). Thats a pretty neat idea..
it would be hard to balance the back and forth.. but that is a cool idea.
Might have to wait till I get to play a second FF game... where I know a bit more about using it all.
but that is a really cool idea....
BAB/ to hit might be an issue though.. since busters hit normal ac i think?

Losing INT (when not using grenade gun) is pretty painful but the utility is too neat. but I took gunner (cannonneer) and my gm allowed the wis damage to be changed to int to damage with bullets because the grit pool was changed. So once in a while I can make abig shot that does extra damage

Having clips of different elemnet bullet is such a neat idea.
and at high level.. shooting holy is just so cool. Even if it's going to be insanely costy. (as I see no way to cheaply make that, As you can only "cheap make" up to tier 3.)
if I have a sniper rifle i'll probalby have a few specific bullets with "doubled up" alchemical items imbued on them, for rare special time uses.

It's too bad there aren't discoveries for alchemical items. Maybe I'll play with a few ideas and see how they balance..
it seems like a chemist is *the* user of alchemical items, so it would be neat to have discoveries for it... either adding int damage to it, or making the alchemical mixture a faster action, or lasting longer, or lowering the costs of crafting alchemical items.

So far, since i'm not getting a ton of Bomb discoveries, i'm picking up some of the other discoveries, or a few bomb discoveries I might not use very often.

[Zwordsman]

Thought:

concerning explosive missle discovery
at lv 4 with a feat at lv 5, i could get both the ability to shoot a bomb, and to use alchemical bullets. without having to wait till lv 8.

Considering grenade gun exists. I'm guessing this is an oversite, and someone may want to include a wording on the alchemical bullet ability to prevent it.
As currently it would allow you to get it 3-4 lvels earlier (depending on actual character level). I think you could actually use an alchemical item infused (via alchemy bullet) bullet in the explosive missle discovery shot. and have bomb and alchemical item on it. Though it costs you quite a bit of resources in ability and money. so maybe it isn't a terribly big issue.


As near as I can tell there isn't an effect grenade gun does that explosive missle doesnt.
Alchemical bullet doesn't prevent the AOE effects of alchemical items, it only restricts splash weapons, which only come from bombs.
In fact. Explosive missle states it still acts ias if it was thrown.. so it allows some small corner case benefits I think

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technomancer+chemist actually doesn't llook like a bad combo so far...
9 chemist... aslong as you don't need DC for the chemist bomb's (originally i was considering it due to status effect shots), and if you don't want to pop out free tier 2 via alchemical mixture.
technomancer saysi t's level counts for caster levels for creation. so as long as tge gm doesn't object to the wording. you lose no crafting levels for alchmical items.
So, you get all you need from the chemist class for alchemical items.
Then 11technomancer, and you can make a decent enough buster.
(or busters) and some other items
Just everything will cost gil for sure, as you lost the free higher level amchimcal mixture stuff...
but you can get some goodness. Like bomb or alchemical item(or both if the above is valid for gm)+buster stuff+the chemical reaction bombs if you get the right mech genius thing.
also weirdness.. like the line effect busters using bullets but being a line.

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" These points are not spent when creating inventions, but are a limit to the level of complexity of any one invention."
Is "invention" the categories? (suit, buster, gadget)
or is it invention as in a singlular buster, amount as many busters as you want to pay for?

[dairius_chi]

Alchemical Bullet and Grenade Gun work with Firearms, Explosive Missile works with Bows and Crossbows.

Firearms target Touch AC within a certain range, which is a pretty big benefit, and at least in FFd20 generally have better damage, plus a 'clip' which allows multiple shots before needing to be reloaded.

Some wordings here are an issue with copy-pasting from PF to FFd20, in PF there aren't any Alchemical items that have AoE, aside from Splash Weapons. For Alchemical Bullet the intent is likely to eliminate any AoE, so it's most beneficial when using the single-target items anyways like Bomb Fragment(Fire III, 5d6+10 damage, might set them on fire).

Now, to be fair, I have had multiple GMs allow Explosive Missile to work with Firearms as well, but that is a GM call and not an engrained rule.


Technomancer/Chemist combo: Yes, their CL would likely stack for the sake of crafting Alchemical Items, though that doesn't affect features related to it like Alchemical Mixture, to create more powerful temporary items.

EDIT: You get a pool of Invent Points which applies to all collective Busters, but that doesn't lower your pool for Constructs, Suits, or Gadgets. If you have 10 Invent Points you have 10 points for each category, which can be used to make one big item or multiple small ones.

[Zwordsman]

Thank you again. Your quite awesome.

Doesn't explosive missle work with onehanded firearms too? Though good point I didn't notice that. So it won't help long range style. or the particualry oomphy firearms


sidenote:
I can't seem to find a craft DC for the ffd20 firearms. and I can't figure them out from the paizo rules either..
What is the DC for the firearms in ffd20? I ask because without gunsmithing feat, or the grit deed "quick clear" you have to roll repair to fix a misfired firearm's broken status.
Or maybe you just can't repair it without the feat or the deed.
Which would be easy enough to fix. gunsmitthing, even in a "common guns" world isn't a terrible idea. for no need to roll to craft gun related stuff, and repair

edit: went to paizo forums searching around for firearm/bullet crafting. Looks like you do need gunsmithing.
So I'll probably pick that up I guess. Phew I'm never gonna get precise shot at this point haha.
Sorely tempted to dip 1 lv of blue mage gunner artchetype to get both of those feats and a little bit of spells.

[dairius_chi]

You are correct, the last time I looked at Explosive Missile was very shortly after Firearm rules became more prominent so chances are it hadn't been updated for that- so Alchemical Bullet and Grenade Gun's other benefit is that it can be used for 2-Handed Firearms, and for non-bomb Alchemical Items you can craft the special bullets ahead of time.

Personally, I like the idea of Alchemist's Fire Shotgun Shells, Incendiary rounds. With Grenade Gun they once again count as Splash weapons and deal Int mod to damage, so with Buckshot you can cover a cone with 2d8+2 plus 1d4+5(assuming 18 Int) for the cost of one shell and 1.67gil(can craft 3 Alchemist Fires for 5 gil). Being able to double-up on items is nice too, could go for a double dose of Fire (2d4+10) or splice some Acid Flask in there for 2 types of Energy damage.

And, since you can in fact crit with Splash Weapons, a crit with the Firearm leads to a multiplication on the energy damage(though, as with Spellstrike from Magus/Red Mage, chances are the Energy Damage would only ever double rather than matching the weapon's multiplier).

Yeah, you need Gunsmithing to craft Bullets and Firearms, so it's a bit of a feat tax but they are really some of the best ranged weapons in the game (at least the ones Vil is using, notsomuch the base PF Firearms). I'd advise against the Blue Mage dip, since you're already splitting your Chemist and Technomancer Features, adding a couple caster levels will likely just end up muddling things.

Just stick to targeting creatures your allies haven't engaged yet, or if dealing with very large creatures, target a square none of your allies are adjacent to, no need for Precise Shot when they take up half the map usually.